Safeheron Partner Jag Foo // Web3 Accountant Radio Ep8 Transcript
Jag Foo is the partner of Safeheron, an Institutional-Grade Self-Custodial Solution for Digital Assets.
Safeheron is a leading provider of digital asset self-custody solutions for institutional clients. Our platform utilizes secure multi-party computation (MPC) and trusted execution environment (TEE) technologies to offer a comprehensive and trusted solution for the self-custody of digital assets.
In this conversation, we dive into:
1. What is Safeheron?
2. What are the areas that financial institutions are focusing on when they speak to Safeheron?
3. What is warm storage?
4. Advantage of Safeheron vs other custodians
5. What is transparency for a custodian?
6. Why did Jag decide to enter the Web3 space？
7. What is the most important lesson learned in the Web3 space?
8. What is Jag looking forward to in the Web3 space?
And more! __________________________________
Connect with Jag & Safeheron👇
Linkedin: / jag-foo-cftp-cpp-psp-pci-3bb85175/
Website: https://safeheron.com/
TG: @JagFoo
Hi everyone, welcome to the Web3 Accountant Radio, the podcast where we dive into the fascinating world of the Web3 finance and compliance. I’m today’s host Diana and my partner is Wei Xiang. Hi Wei Xiang.
Hi Diana, today we are very privileged to have Jag here with us today, a professional and an expert in digital asset security and custody. Yeah, Jag Foo is an experienced security management and business development professional with more than 15 years of proven track record in the field of security technology and artificial intelligence. He is currently a partner of Safeheron, an institutional-grade self-custodial solution for digital assets, multi-party computation and trusted execution environment technology.
Welcome our today’s guest, Jag. Hello, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you, thank you so much Wei Xiang and Diana for having me.
Really excited to be on your podcast and looking forward to having a good conversation ahead. Yeah, thank you. Maybe before we start, Jag, can you introduce us to Safeheron and a little bit about what you’re doing at Safeheron? Yeah, yeah, sure, sure.
So once again, my name is Jag, a partner of Safeheron. Thank you so much for having me. So essentially what we do is that we are an institutional-grade MPC self-custody solution.
So MPC, it’s actually a technology that stands for multi-party computation, which I’ll go into details later. So we use MPC technology basically to help our enterprise and institutional clients to create secure wallets and vaults, to help them to enhance security and governance of the digital asset management while at the same time also being regulatory compliant. And for us, we are based out of Singapore as our HQ with offices in Hong Kong and in China.
So we are really a Web3 company with distributed presence in three countries. And we serve a wide range of clients across different geographical locations, namely we serve many clients across different sectors such as exchanges, OTC, which is over-the-counter desk, payment solutions, funds, lending desk, and the likes. And we are also the world’s first open-source C++-based MPC wallet protocol.
So we are very big on transparency, which is something I’ll share about later. And just a little bit of milestones that we have reached since we launched a little more than one and a half years ago. So to date, we have onboarded more than 100 institutions.
At our peak, we have more than $1.5 billion worth of assets under self-custody process, more than $30 billion worth of assets transfer, and we never ever had a single case of asset loss or account compromise. So that’s something that we are very proud of, but we will not rest on our laurels. We are continually looking forward to innovate, to produce better features, better functionalities, and to continually help our clients to be more secure, more operationally efficient, and to be able to help them to meet their complying needs with regards to where they are in their respective jurisdictions.
Thank you, Jag, for the deep introduction. I think in the last one year or so, you would have spoke to many different financial institutions with regards to custody. And one thing which I want to ask is that, especially for new financial institutions trying to get their license or people who have just entered the Web 3 scene from the Web 2 scene itself.
So the Web 2 may refer to the traditional finance or the banking world. What are the areas that financial institutions are focusing on when they speak to Safeheron? So for us, we are primarily focused on institutions who are already in the Web 3 or digital asset space. So we are helping them to secure their digital assets.
Digital assets could refer to cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin, Ether, or it could refer to stable coins like USDT, Tether, US dollars or USDC, or it could refer to CBDC, or it could also refer to digital tokenized assets, for example, tokenized treasury bills or digital trade tokens and the likes. So what we help our clients is to give them a self-custody platform, which first, to help them to safeguard their assets. Number two, to manage their assets in a way that is in line with good governance.
So namely to allow for multi-party to co-manage assets and that any kind of transfer, any kind of financial transactions or actions that has financial significance is always done under a condition whereby there’s always supervisory oversight and that any actions or any transfer cannot be done unilaterally by a single party. There’s always a system of check and balance. So our custody solution is designed to give our users the ability to manage the digital assets in a way that it has very good compliance, has systems where they can easily check each other.
So in terms of what institutions look out for, there are three key areas in which I like to highlight. I mean, there are many aspects, but three key areas that institutions will look out for. Number one will be transparency.
So when I talk about transparency, especially about the Web3 space, as you may know, in Web3, one of the core ethos and guiding principle behind crypto and digital assets is about transparency of codes, transparency of cryptography, and that we do not just base on, hey, trust me, bro, but that anyone can come to review our codes, anyone can come review our cryptography that we make open source on GitHub, and that they can do so in a way that’s permissionless. So we think that transparency is the root of trust in our industry and that we try to, as far as possible, walk that talk. So in our case, because we use, we heavily use the MPC or multi-party computations to mitigate the single point of failure on the private key, and private key, it’s a very critical credential that we use to prove ownership of the digital assets and we use to authorize transfer.
So the MPC codes that we use, we make most of it open source on our GitHub so anyone can come to review us. So what we set up to do is to be as transparent as possible, as opposed to like a black box. So anyone can come to review us and gain trust through the codes that we put out there.
So transparency is definitely one very key aspect of what we do as far as web3 digital asset security is concerned. Number two is that institutions, they look a lot for wallets and custodians that they use, right? Do they or do the vendors comply with accepted industry standards in relation to security and data privacy, right? So they are globally accepted standards like ISO 27001, SOC 2, Type 1, Type 2 that relates to data privacy and cybersecurity. So do the custody or the vendor comply by such industry accepted security standards? So that one thing that definitely institution, especially regulated companies like digital banks, payments would definitely look out for, right? And maybe just to add one sub point in relation to industry standard for certain clients, they may also look at whether do you provide insurance coverage.
So for us as a self-custody solution whereby we provide our enterprise clients the full means to manage their own assets, while at the same time having full control over their assets, right? There are not many self-custody providers that provide insurance. Usually that is provided only by custodians, right? So custodians who enterprise outsource the full asset management to this third party. So for us, we are not custodian.
We provide that self-custody technology and we want a few that provide insurance. That’s something that some clients would be concerned about and they will ask for. And the third thing would be operational flexibility, right? So when I talk about flexibility, I’m referring first of all to the hosted model.
So in our industry, especially for self-custody solution, most self-custody providers, they render solution based on a SaaS model. So a SaaS model, it stands for software as a service, basically infrastructure hosted on the vendor side, right? And it’s most common because a lot of companies, they would want to set up and deploy quickly, right? Usually they want to be able to control their security running costs and to be at the same time, enjoy a very high level of security. So a SaaS model would be able to meet these requirements.
But the only thing is that for a certain group of clients, especially for those with more stricter data privacy and control requirements, for example, for banks, for the bigger banks, or even for certain government clients who are looking to self-custody their digital assets, right? Many of them will not be able to accept a SaaS model, right? They would need a model that it’s more towards private deployment. So in that case, flexibility in terms of deployment of solution would be an important consideration, right? And from a custody perspective, we have a hot, warm storage, right? Hot, warm storage are useful for clients. Sorry, Jag, can I ask a question? So I have heard of hot storage.
What is warm storage? So I have heard of hot, I have heard of cold, but what is warm? Is it the same as hot? No, no, no. So hot, usually for hot, warm storage, right? They are bundled together. So like hot storage, you can think in terms of the private keys, which I mentioned earlier, which are the credentials that you use to prove ownership and to authorize transactions, right? The private keys are stored online, right? In a warm model, the keys are also online, but hot wallet is used more in a context where it’s an ability to automate transactions, right? And that the online status of the private key can help to enable and facilitate automated signing transactions.
Whereas for a warm wallet, right? It usually depicts a situation whereby there is manual signing involved. So the user still needs to be online, the private key still needs to be online, but there will be a manual verification and signing that takes place, right? So that’s like the home and warm context. The cold will mean that the private key, it’s usually stored offline and that signing can only take place if there’s some manual intervention by the holders of the private key to do signing.
Thank you. Yeah. So I was actually also wanting to share that many of the MPC providers have custody are mainly relates to hot, warm storage.
But if you want to find institutional cold vaults, right? That is something whereby there’s still much more void in the market and that some customers may need hot, warm, or some may need cold, or even all three. So that’s what I also mean by being able to have a versatile solution suite that can cater to different custody types. And this is, I think, is also particularly important because for many jurisdictions, including Singapore, right? For regulated clients, it’s mandated that 90% of the assets will have to be cold wallets.
So for institutions in particular, having institutional grid cold wallets, especially for self-custody, would be important. Yeah. So that’s about flexibility.
And I have just one more point that I like to highlight would be that there will be, I’ve talked about hot, warm, cold. I’ve talked about the different deployment options in terms of flexibility or solutions. We also discovered through the time that we have come into security operations is that there’ll be a certain group of clients that may need a fully customized wallet infrastructure, right? That they may need to be on white label basis.
So under that kind of situation, right? The usual self-custody SaaS-based solution would not be able to meet that, right? So in that case that you require what we call Amplifino SDK, they can give the flexibility to the users to create their own customized white label wallet infrastructure. Yeah. So sorry for the very long… No, no, no.
I think it’s very clear. I think it’s thanks for actually sharing with everybody that’s watching this video. Today, if you are thinking about a custodian itself, especially Safeheron or any other company and talk about transparency, you talk about whether they have the relevant certifications, you talk about whether they are able to provide the different kind of services which your company need, maybe hot wallet or cold wallet in regards to regulation.
So definitely Jag has brought us very quickly using the short time that we have today to go through it. Just one last question for Jag himself before we go to the free talk session. Jag, so maybe can you share with us a little bit about what is the special advantage that Safeheron has over the other different custodians outside? Currently, there is quite a number of custodians in the market.
Some are regulated, some are not regulated. Yeah. So for us, we focus primarily on the self-custody space, right? So if you’re talking about custody of assets for any digital asset institutions who are holding to digital assets or crypto assets or stable coins or CBDCs, you would definitely need custody.
It’s just a matter of whether it’s self-custody or you put it with a centralized custodian, right? So self-custody again relates to you have full control over the assets. Custodians, you outsource the management and ownership of the assets to a third party to take care for you, right? So for us, we only focus on self-custody aspect. And if I would say, what differentiates us, I could draw back to the key, the three key references points that institutions will look up for, right? From a transparency, security, as well as flexibility perspective.
So first off, we set out to be one of the most transparent self-custody provider, if not the most transparent. And also by that, I mean, we open source most of our cryptography, our quotes, covering the various curve, various signing algorithms that would be used for any digital asset custody, right? And some technology that we use such as trusted execution environment, which is the encryption, hardware encryption technology that we use to secure our sensitive data, like our key charts, our security policies. So some of these codes, we will also open source them as well.
So again, we think that transparency of code, transparency of cryptography is the root of trust and that we derive trust from transparency. And that’s what we set out to do. And we can say that, you know, in self-custody space, right? Not many providers would open source our code, you know, open source our codes.
And we think that also from a security perspective, that when you open source, right, you first, you have to up your game, right? We let other people review us and we have to up our game to make sure that, you know, there’s no backdoor that can be exploited. There’s no loopholes that, you know, any bad actors can take advantage of, you know, at the same time for the good actors, for our white hat that we work with, right? You know, we can also all come together to help to look out for each other, you know, which is why we think that transparency overall, right? If you consider the pros and cons, we think that it’s still a net positive. So that’s one, you know, we always try to be as more transparent than, you know, our peers in the markets.
The second thing, you know, we, ourself, we comply with the highest level of security standards, namely ISO 27001 and ISO 27002 that I mentioned earlier, right? Which in the self-custody space, there are not many that comply by that. So we also want to get trust from our clients based on that our infrastructure complies with industry standards, right? And the third part about flexibility, we pride ourself, you know, on having the most comprehensive range of custody types, right? So for the custody types, I prefer to not have one solutions and that we plan to introduce our institutional custody next year, and that to be able to cater to different deployment options, namely SaaS space or hybrid to private on-prem deployment. So this ensures that for clients with varying security, risk management and data privacy needs, right? We would have that solution that can cater and fit their requirements because we know that it’s just impossible to have a one size fits all solution.
Yeah. So in a nutshell, these are three core areas that we work on, you know, to differentiate ourself. And just for, you know, maybe just one additional point, we just recently launched our Safeheron network.
So our Safeheron network, it’s in a nutshell, it’s a permission peer-to-peer transfer and liquidity network whereby our users, they could seamlessly connect with each other, right? To do transfer in a way that is more secure, more efficient, right? And that you don’t have to manually manage addresses, right? They manage instead account profiles to account profiles linkages. And that it’s extremely useful because if our users are linked to each other, of course, in a way that’s permission, you know, if they want to link with another counterparty, they will have to request permission. But once they are linked up, right, they can easily do transfers.
And it’s useful from the perspective of asset transfer security. It’s useful from the perspective of if particular users, they want to access liquidity, or maybe they want to work with a payment counterparty or an OTC counterparty, right? Having users of different types of business backgrounds in the same network would help to facilitate more seamless and more secure asset transfer, while also ensuring that it’s a high level of operational efficiency. Yeah, I think this is very cool.
This is similar to how in a traditional world, we have like, if you transfer money between a DBS of a country and a DBS of another country, they are able to transfer it seamlessly compared to if you go onto the SWIFT network. So I think this is a very cool new idea. Exactly.
In fact, our first integration is to allow our users to seamlessly connect with each other. The second, third and fourth phase is to integrate with exchanges, to integrate with banks, you know, to allow for fiat transfers within the platform. And then the last phase is to do off exchange so that some of our clients, for example, like market makers, right, they could access the liquidity of exchanges without facing that centralized counterparty risk that exchange may bring.
Yes. And liquidity is what everybody is looking for. Yeah.
But keeping track of the time, sorry, but I still want to know on the side of Jag that many people don’t have the chance to know. Yeah. Diana, over to you.
Okay. So let’s move to the free talk session. And in this session, I have a lot of questions about your ideas, maybe about the compliance and the safe aspect.
The first question is, why did you decide to enter the Web3 space? Oh, yeah, that’s a good question. Well, so, you know, as you may know, we are Digital Asset Security. At the root of what we do, it’s all about securing our clients asset.
Security is always the number one consideration behind the features that we push out, behind the services that we implement for our clients. So for myself, I come from a traditional security technology background. I was in physical security technology for more than 10 years.
And then why did I decide to go into crypto, specifically crypto security was because I always had, you know, a lot of interest with regards to crypto because the digital assets, especially my own brother, you know, I have a twin brother who has been in the crypto space for more than 10 years. Does he look like you? Almost like me because he’s an identical twin. He’s been in crypto since 2012.
Right. Like for me, I only started to get more serious about crypto and I actually bought my first Bitcoin in 2018. Right.
So I was considered late compared to my brother. And for me, my background is in security. So I’m passionate about security, you know, and in my prior traditional security technology, domain, I used to serve MNCs, banks, government institutions.
And, you know, I came to that, you know, that realization that security is so important. Right. And that when I look at crypto, you know, the crypto space, it’s like almost every other week, you know, you will hear of hacks that take place, you will hear of exploits that take place.
You will hear that some users have lost assets, you know, some institutions have lost assets because they’re a big victim of social engineering or victim of phishing attacks. And I thought that, hey, why not I find, you know, a niche whereby I can combine the best of both worlds, both of my major interests, crypto and security. And I put two and two together and that’s how, you know, I ended up in Safeheron.
Right. To be able to have that privilege of handling both my two passions, crypto and security. Yeah.
So that’s in short how I entered into Web3, mainly because of the influence of my twin brother and mainly because of my desire to move into crypto, but not moving far away from what I have always been doing and that is security. Yeah. And I really think that for Web3 adoption to keep mainstream level, you know, one of the core foundational issues that we have to get it right, you know, to do it well is definitely security, you know, as well as good governance and good compliance.
Okay. And as you mentioned, the security is very important and nowadays many companies face the threat of the attacks and nowadays cybersecurity is a topic of great concern around the world. So could you share one security experience or lessons to our listeners? Well, if I could, first of all, in digital assets, crypto space is definitely not for the faint hearted.
As I mentioned, literally, you know, it’s not far-fetched to say that a hack or exploit happened every other week. Literally, you know, if you go on to the crypto media, you go on to, you read the news, you’ll find that all these actions has been hacked, you know, or this lending protocol has been hacked or this institution has lost money because there was internal fraud that take place. So security is important.
That’s why I’m here. And if I highlight one major concern, one major threat that, you know, any participants in the digital assets space will have to look out for is definitely the threat of social engineering attacks and phishing scams. And why is something that we really have to pay attention to is because such phishing threats and social engineering attacks, they can come in many forms.
They can come in the form of airdrop scams or malware infections or address poisoning. And that this phishing attacks can take place on many different platforms. We are seeing social engineering attempts take place on Telegram, on Twitter, or now it’s called X, you know, on LinkedIn.
And that sometimes you may get approached by people and they turn out to be a scammer. In fact, for our company ourselves, we ever had staff, you know, who were approached by scammers on Telegram, claiming that they are from this exchange or from this company and that they said, oh, they like the profile of our employee and that I want to offer you a job opportunity. And through this course of the conversation, you know, we have ever come across cases whereby you know, the scammers, you know, would say that, okay, in order to facilitate a job interview, I will need you to download a software.
And the software would be an online meeting software, right? And this software can actually turn out to be a malware. And this malware could be used to compromise your wallet that you’re using or could use to get hold of some of your sensitive credentials, right? For example, like your lock-in passwords or your private key data, right? So these are things which are to be taken very seriously, right, because we have seen, you know, many victims, regardless of background, regardless of, you know, how long they’ve been in this space, we have seen victims across the whole spectrum, right, we have, even the drug enforcement agent agency in the US, you know, has been a victim of social engineering attack before, right, so let alone normal users, right, who may not have the security awareness, that’s why at SafeHeron, we frequently do a lot of security trainings, we even do red teaming, right, so red teaming is like we conduct exercise to try to phish, you know, social engineer, even our own employees, right, and then, you know, to try to get them to download, you know, an application, and once they download the application, we tell them, hey, you know, you have just been phished, but okay, this is an internal rate teaming exercise, but why for us we need to do, you know, we need to pay particular attention, because we are a security company ourselves, we have good infrastructure, you know, where we secure our clients’ assets, even though it’s the control of assets belongs to our clients, but, you know, we have to make sure that we ourselves are resilient, and that we do not fall victims to social engineering attacks ourselves, right, and that’s beyond just making sure that we have, you know, a good system, good infrastructure in place, but that our process are steady, are very sturdy, and our users have a very good security awareness, you know, with regards to such threats, and my advice to, you know, other Web3 finance and participants and users in this space is that to always be careful, always be vigilant, and as this security mantra goes, don’t trust, always verify, you know, I cannot just stress how important that is, don’t trust anything, distrust by default, and always verify. Okay, and under today’s situation, what are you looking forward to in the compliance or the security aspect? Yeah, so compliance actually has very close relations to security, right, because we will talk about good security, good governance, and especially in the Web3 digital asset space, I think compliance is super critical, and, you know, we are lucky like in Singapore, the Monetary Authority of Singapore, it’s considered more forward-thinking and more active in terms of regulating the digital asset space, and coming out with more guidelines to ensure that first and foremost, the users’ assets can be safeguarded, you know, and we protect the security of the users’ interests above all else, right, and this is especially in light of FTX, the blow-up in 2022, and many of the fall of centralized institutions that has happened two years ago, many of them was due to, like, lack of transparency, lack of proper governance, lack of proper controls, lack of proper check and balances, right, lack of proper segregations of assets, segregations of duties, and that, you know, there’s a lot of centralization of power that’s helped by a few with no supervisory oversights, so I think that we need to see more regulation in regards to protection of the assets of our users. Jag, since we are on to this topic, just a question from me, do you think with the current revised regulations coming out in Singapore itself, are we having sufficient regulation, or do you think we need more regulation? I think, okay, so actually coming to that, I think that we are on the right track, right, that MAS, you know, when they came out with the guidelines, especially the last two revised editions, right, they put a lot of focus on making sure there’s segregation of duties, segregation of assets, making sure that there is, you know, when we set up rules and privileges, it’s always in accordance to principle of least privilege, so I think that’s on the right track, but having said that, right, I think more can be done in terms of better clarity, especially with regards to technology terms, right, because in Web3, it’s very tech-focused, so whoever is writing the regulations, whoever is coming up with the guidelines must know tech well first, right, they must know tech well, and I could just, like, quickly give two examples.
In the last revision, there was talk about what constitutes cold-wallets, right, because for regulated clients, for regulated institutions, in Singapore, 90% of the assets must be in cold, right, so what constitutes cold, and the definition in, you know, I think the one of the documents was, there states that a cold-wallet is defined as a wallet that’s, or the private key is not connected to the internet, you know, not connected to any wireless communication, so the first part, I have no arguments of, right, wallet not connected to the internet, yes, correct, or private key is offline, correct, but is it true that it’s the cold-wallet, it’s only a cold-wallet if it’s not connected to the wireless communications, and then I would say that in certain situations, that’s not true, right, because for certain cold-wallet infrastructure, right, we use air-gap signing, right, we use air-gap signing by scanning QR codes, so actually when you scan QR codes, right, we are establishing a local area network connection, so a local area network connection is actually a form of wireless communication, but that doesn’t mean, you know, that’s not a cold-wallet, right, so at that time when it came out, you know, I was sharing to, you know, the associations, who was giving briefing about it, that, you know, whoever’s writing this definitely is not 100% clear, you know, he could have just defined it as co-wallet is a wallet that’s not connected to the internet, and that would be suffice, right, but if you add all, or not connected to wireless communication, you know, then it brings in confusion, so that’s one example of an area which I think could have better clarity, and that, you know, perhaps it would be better if there was more engagement with technology providers, and there was also that confusion about whether, for example, MPC provider like us, right, we do not control the full private key, right, we control a part of the key shards, but we do not control the full private key, so in that case, in that case, do we need to be licensed like a centralized custodian would, right, so actually the obvious, you know, for most of us in the self-custody space is that we shouldn’t be licensed, right, because we are not holding the complete private key, and if we don’t hold the private key, we cannot control the user’s assets, we cannot transfer the assets away, you know, we cannot rob the user, right, so it doesn’t mean if we control even part of the key shards, we control the assets, but I think there’s some confusion even with some players in this space, you know, who are in the field of compliance, and again, I think that more engagement, you know, it’s vital, you know, to clear up a lot of some of these misconceptions or areas that seem to be more ambiguous. Yeah, thank you, Jag, for sharing. I think one thing that we all agree with is that the regulators are taking the step in the right direction, but definitely, you know, with time and there’s more players in the field coming out to raise the relevant questions, especially when with big players like Safeheron themselves, there will be more clarity in the future, maybe in the form of illustrations or maybe in the form of clear examples provided and guidance provided by regulators.
Just before we end, given that the time is running, I just want to share something that I learned from Jag. So the thing is, maybe you are thinking, what other benefits does Safeheron has that Jag hasn’t shared or why are we, you know, wanting to use Safeheron itself or why did I invited Jag onto the show itself? One thing is very clear, is if we are using unregulated wallets itself or using your own custody methods currently, does your custody provider help you monitor, you know, if there’s any issues with the funds going on in your wallet itself? I do know from Jag himself that Safeheron provides a service where they would warn you if there’s a chance of hack taking place through their algorithm where they track, you know, maybe there’s certain fund transfer to a certain address that is very peculiar from certain habits that you are going from. I’m just giving yourself an example and I believe Jag will clarify on it, but I mean to have a third party watching over your funds and not make it truly, you know, unsafe.
I think that is something that many owners would be very happy to have. Yeah. Yeah.
First and foremost is that when users use our security infrastructure, we want to make sure that they have peace of mind. We want to make sure that full control over the assets. We want to make sure that there is a robust architecture that they can have in place to securely manage the assets in a multi-party management model.
And that at the end of the day, it’s all about making sure that they have a peace of mind and that for enterprises, especially for those who are regulated, they can also meet, you know, their respective compliance needs. So that’s what we, you know, put ourselves, you know, every day outside for, you know, is to always to help our clients, you know, on these critical aspects. Definitely.
With Safeheron, you get a peace of mind. Yeah. Yes.
With Safeheron, your assets are safe for everyone. Yes. Thank you for being here.
So thank you for so much for sharing your insight and experience with us today. And now is the end of our broadcast and to our listeners, thank you for tuning into the Web3 Accountant Radio. If you enjoyed this radio, please subscribe and leave a review for us.
So do you have anything else to our listeners, and thank you for having me. Okay. Thank you so much.