Nara Labs Co-founder Penuil Jr Catingub // Web3 Accountant Radio Ep15 Transcript
Penuil Jr Catingub is the Co-founder of Nara Labs.
Nara Labs provide Digital Marketing, Events and Accounting Services to Web3 projects and brands..
In this conversation, we dive into:
1. How is the crypto accounting scene in Phillipine
2. More customers looking for crypto accounting or more employees with knowledge
3. Why enter the Web3 world
4. Favorite Crypto Subledger
5. Why did Penuil decide to enter the Web3 space?
6. One key finance/ compliance lesson from Penuil
7. What is Penuil looking forward to in the Web3 space?
And more!
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Connect with Penuil & Nara Labs👇
Linkedin: / penuiljrcatingub/
Telegram: @CryptoBooks_Naralabs
Website: https://naralabs.io/
Email: [email protected]
Linkedin: / naralabs/
Hi everyone, welcome to the Web3 Accountant Radio, the podcast where we dive into the fascinating world of the Web3 Finance and Compliance. I’m today’s host Diana and my partner is Wei Xiang. Hello, Wei Xiang.
Hi, Diana. Yeah, and today we have a guest called Penuil. Penuil is a freelancer, gamer, spot copy and bot trader, co-founder of Naralabs, owner of ARC, a crypto accounting service, pioneering instructor and co-founder of Crypto Accounting PH Academy.
Welcome, Penuil. Nice to meet you. Hello.
Hi. Hi. Thanks.
Thanks for having me here. Hi. today we are very lucky to have Penuil here with us.
I have been hearing a lot of stories about him starting maybe a crypto accounting school or even speaking about Philippines crypto accounting at tax forums. today we are very lucky to have him here to share with us about the Philippines crypto accounting scene. No one better to hear than from the expert himself and somebody who is deep inside the scene.
So maybe we start off with one simple question first. Penuil, how is the crypto accounting scene picking up in Philippines itself? Well, generally the crypto accounting here in the Philippines is that like a few people already catering the service across the globe. But in terms of like general knowledge, a few of us having the advocacy to have everyone learn crypto accounting.
And that’s why we’re pioneering the Crypto Accounting PH Academy here. Oh, can you share with me more about PH Academy? Yes, of course. we’re launching the Crypto PH Academy that every accountant or mostly conventional accountant here doesn’t really have the full knowledge in terms of servicing crypto accounting, like using subledger, integrating it into QuickBooks and other ERP such as Xero and NetSuite.
Everyone is like really having a hard time. I remember back like two years or three years ago, I’m having a hard time doing research, guiding my prospect clients in order for me to cater financials into or such a way that they can understand it and that it can help them make a decision. Right now we’re pioneering the course.
We’re launching it up to, I think the enrollment is good until Friday and we would be starting the course Saturday and onwards. I see. how much is the cost? right now we are having it around 15,000 pesos.
That’s really cheap in terms of like, you know, other offerings across the globe. I think I’ve encountered some like 2,000 to 3,000 for me, just a head start for them to give them the, you know, equip them to cater or service other clients in the space and they will know how to do crypto accounting. What is the biggest difference between crypto accounting and, you know, accounting for non-crypto companies? Well, to be honest, in terms of like similarity, but the challenge really is the volatility of price, how the data is being translated from the blockchain going to ERP to the Xero to QuickBooks.
That’s really the essential part of it. And of course, in terms of regulation, even here in the Philippines, I should say there’s nothing much in terms of like guiding rules to be applied into crypto accounting. But of course, we all have like the standard IFRS GAAP.
We have already that one in the conventional accounting. I see. I mean, for many of the listeners listening in, I think this is one key question.
Is there more people who know crypto accounting in Philippines or are there more customers looking for you for like crypto accounting help? Is the customer currently more or is it the employee more? Well, right now, there’s still, I should say it’s still in progress, you know, orientation, adoption of crypto accounting here is still in progress, I should say. Even locally, I got like a couple of queries, but in terms of like really applications. Reason being for that is that even the internal revenue here doesn’t have like a clear guidelines, how do we do or how do we like input the crypto accounting, the capital gain stuff, how to file it, everything like that.
We just have like a mandate that this is going to be, you know, 15% for your capital gains. And of course, the profit and loss will be inputted as like regular as the same as the conventional taxation. That’s really the main challenge right now in terms of, you know, adoption really in general and specifically level for everyone doing crypto accounting.
I see. Is crypto legal in Philippines at the moment? I’m talking about exchanges, do the locals, are the locals able to exchange? Yes, yes. It’s very legal.
We just need to like actually the compliance in terms of exchanges here, it’s pretty much minimal, I should say, just a few licenses from the central banks and the SEC. it’s not that like there are special cases or special requirements for it to be granted as the license, but just the very, very much minimal requirements because as of the moment, there’s no strict regulation here. I’m pretty sure you heard that Binance was banned here because the Binance was more of like off the grid kind of set up.
They don’t have a local presence here. When I say presence, they don’t have like a local office. The idea is to comply with the local requirements, you know, getting the licenses from the central bank.
When they operate it remotely or just via online, that’s why they didn’t like ask or apply for that kind of licenses. In effect, they were not able to get the license and they were banned here. I see.
Other companies can actually approach to central bank to get a crypto license and function? Yes, yes, yes. We have like local companies here like BDAX, we have Maya as well. We have Coins.ph. Coins.ph, I think operated already like since 2016 or 2015.
I thought about Coins.ph. I think last week they mentioned that they want to start a Peso stablecoins.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. even the government is like really adapting already. They are already accepting stablecoins as a payment.
I see. Nice. For like new people who have not entered the Web3 world, do you have anything to tell them why they should come over? Well, whenever you like enter into this space, I should say the research and studying what you are getting involved with.
I think that is really imperative from your end. And of course, there are still a lot of scams here that you don’t want to get involved with. You need to secure your finances and everything like that.
you need to study, you need to do the research, the due diligence, I should say, that should be topmost priority. Thank you. how long is the cost? Because I think after somebody here, like the crypto scene is growing and there is people that is interested.
I think the next step is to say, I’m going to your crypto school for the 15,000 Peso. How long is the cost itself? we have it six weeks. It will run up to six weeks, but of course, we have like other courses on the side, just a bonus.
Of course, right here, there’s nothing much into like a market for us. We need to go out there and sell ourselves to market our portfolio, I should say. We’re adding some courses like profile optimization, how to have your profile entice prospect clients.
Those kinds of stuff. For example, I built my portfolio for quite some time in the crypto space. I think it took me like two or three years just to get a hundred percent rating and a hundred percent job success in Upwork.
That’s one of the portfolio that I’m giving to my clients as well. Yeah. I think one thing is I have heard a lot of my friends, my friends are like crypto accounting firms globally, and they enjoy hiring Philippines people.
I mean, one is of relatively the cost is lower, but the other thing is Filipinos, they are very friendly, very warm, and they speak good English. these are the various attributes, which actually, you know, what I’m trying to say is anybody who attend your school and then they get like knowledge into crypto, they are desired globally. Again, if you are working in traditional companies, you know, you only maybe work in Philippines and for Philippine companies.
Yes. I think that’s an additional edge as well for the students here. Yeah.
And to be able to look for jobs. And I think maybe because you are new, you have not, you know, got many pipeline, but I believe as your school grow, you know, in the future, there’ll be people telling you that as long as people graduate from your school, you know, they will hire them. And then, you know, there’s a win-win for everybody.
Yeah. That’s really the idea to help them grow in the crypto space and be out there. And of course, they help them build their portfolio as well that they can offer it across the globe, really.
For example, for my profile right now, I’m reaching my reach up to like Latin America and British Virgin Island, Switzerland, and other parts of the world. Yeah. Because you would be able to do the accounts other than US.
I think US have a very different standards. The rest of the world kind of just use IFRS. more standardized.
Yes. I mean, on the other side about crypto accounting, I’m not, I just, I’m just curious myself, like what is the favorite crypto subledger that, you know, you are using or that you like to use? Well, as far as my experience is concerned, to be honest, I’ve been exposed with like crypto tax calculator. That’s where I started as well.
Right now I’m using CoinTracker, CoinTracker, Crypto also. And I developed a partnership with the Singapore-based Elven as well. that’s one of the platforms that I’ll be teaching the students or the enrollees.
Ah, I think, very nice. I think Crypto Tax Calculator will be very happy to hear you give a shout out to them and also Elven as well. Yes.
Yeah, yes. They’ve been really helpful in terms of support. Like, not all exchanges or wallets are like really interfacing.
Somehow we encountered some errors. we just need to get in touch with their customer service and they can able to fix it. I think that’s the beauty of Crypto Tax Calculator as well.
Over time, the customer service is really phenomenal. Yeah, I think that is very good to hear. And I think Elven also have very good support.
Yes. I see.
yeah. just maybe one more thing is the lessons are held online and is it only for Filipinos? Like, which kind of students are you targeting? Like from Singapore, do you welcome the students? Yes, yes, of course. But I think I’ll be offering the same as well to across the globe.
But right now it’s still, it’s a mix of English and local language here. that might be a challenge for them. But yeah, I think we don’t restrict that one here, but soon we’ll reach out for other parts of the globe as well.
Yes. And I think in terms of pricing wise, it is very competitive and students will learn a lot from you. Well, yes.
I think that’s really the idea to share the knowledge because I think when everyone of us in the Web3 really helping into the orientation, adoption, and sharing the knowledge, I think that’s really the idea that will make the Web3 or the blockchain or the cryptocurrency would stay in the game. And especially right now, it’s bullish again. that’s a lot of businesses and a lot of people or new players in the game are like really shining there.
I see. one last question from me before I hand over the time to Diana is, if a company is thinking of expanding overseas, should the company, I mean, for a crypto business expand over to Philippines? Are there a lot of users in Philippines itself? I think that’s a good question, really. that’s why we’re teaching to give other Filipinos here to learn more and that they can able to cater.
I think the other day or two days back, I got a discovery call with another firm in the US. they’re looking for people like really to save some costs. they trying to outsource it here.
I think that’s really a good opportunity for everyone to learn and be out there and always learning about crypto. Yeah. Thank you.
Thank you. I want to ask some questions later during the personal sharing session. I have many, many questions.
Yes, of course. You’re much welcome, of course. Diana, over to you.
Okay. let’s move to the free talk session today. And as you mentioned, I think the PH Academy give a chance to the person who working for the non-crypto business to transfer to the crypto business.
I’m very curious that why did you decided to enter the Web3 space? Yeah, that’s a great question. I’ve been in the, I should say, I’ve been in the corporate doing like management accounting, go to like a senior level as well. But I tend to jump off from one career to another, like doing accounts payable, accounts receivable and all that.
Mostly my career is with management accounting, the shared service. But then when I got into crypto, I started with trading, spot trading, and I got some gaming as well. And I developed that, I mean, I should say that’s like a really gumball from my end.
And I couldn’t really control my behavior in terms of putting some lots of big lots in the trade. I was like, oh, I got burned. I got burned already.
This is not working for me. I choose to approach it in a conservative manner. I got into crypto accounting.
Until over time I developed the research and studying each project. that’s the good thing with crypto accounting is that each project is different. it’s like triggering myself to learn new things.
And it’s really like a tech driven. if you don’t do research, the business or the crypto accounting business will not prosper, I should say. It will not grow.
That’s really the idea to keep learning and studying new projects. New ecosystem and protocols are being developed over time. I started with layer one and we got layer two now and the Ethereum is really promising.
And of course, as well, there are a lot of traction in the market. we just need to go out there and do the research and keep learning, I should say. Yeah, but Penuil, one thing I think very exciting is you started with learning and learning, and now you are teaching.
You learn a lot when you teach because you need to be ready and your students will have questions. And yeah, it’s very amazing. Actually, when I was preparing the deck for the course, because whenever you are doing the subledger already, it’s already there.
You just need to categorize, right? But when explaining, say, liquidity, staking to the enrollees, it’s a different kind of learning from my end. I’m making the deck and I’m learning as well. I think the good inspiration and the good interest will lead you to make a good achievement in the crypto world.
And can you share one key experience or lesson that you have learned in the Web3 journey? I should say one of the biggest factors that I encountered that really helped me a lot is giving myself availability and making myself of value to the company. And sometimes the company or the clients that you get to be involved with, they are willing to invest with you even if you don’t know anything about the project. when I started, I was like, I’m an expert with QuickBooks and Zero and NetSuite.
Then after that, how about Web3? I was like saying, Web3, I do forex trading, I’m gaming. But in terms of crypto accounting, that’s where it started, the curiosity that triggers me to do more research because they were like saying, what subledger tool are you using? What subledger? I didn’t know that. I was like doing the research and I encountered countless failures as well.
I didn’t close client and it was like really bad feeling for me. And that triggers me to do more research and study, specialize one tool, I should say. I started with CryptoTax calculator.
Then afterwards, I keep learning other tools as well. in my portfolio, you can see a lot of tools already in there. I think during your learning and studying process, maybe you will get in touch with the other persons in this area.
what are you looking forward to in the Web3, maybe accounting or compliance space? Well, right now I’m looking forward, like I followed them on LinkedIn, like Jamie from Mina, like Patrick as well. I should say Patrick Camuso is like the NFT goddess of the gods of things. that’s one of the, like I really look up to.
yeah, others like, who else? I think I forgot, but yeah, I followed different groups in the space. Nice. We had the lucky chance of actually having Patrick on the show itself.
Yeah. I think I watched that one back, I think two weeks ago or three weeks ago. Yes.
We were lucky. I think that’s why Diana was laughing just now. Yeah.
Good thing he’s available. He’s normally a busy guy. Yes.
He’s very busy. And he’s one of my friends that is hiring from Philippines actually, because I see he put like, I’m hiring crypto accountants and then he put the location as Philippines itself. Yeah.
I think one of the other accounting firms, even the one with Dito for last time, he hired me as well. He’s based in Switzerland. Okay.
Maybe today let’s come to the end of today’s podcast. do you have anything else to share with our listeners, Wei Xiang and Penuil? Sorry, I don’t want to end the podcast fast, because I have more questions to ask Penuil. I was interrupted by a housefly or something, but okay.
Can you tell us the ARC story? I think this is very important to me. Which one? Which one? Sorry. The ARC.
why did you start your own crypto accounting firm? Yeah. because right now that’s really what started. I need to like gamble from one, to juggle my time with doing the Nara Labs, the crypto accounting PH.
And then somehow I need to scale up just to cater my clients. I don’t want to fail them because I got other side hassle. I think one of the, I got a conversation back, say, I think three or four weeks back with Patrick.
I was applying for him as a tax accountant and he was like- Ah, you applied to the job. Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes.
But he was like, I need a full-time guy. Sorry, Patrick, I can’t do that. that’s funny because my commitment was with the racing or building the academy and I got the Nara Labs also here.
I think I should say one of the passion is to give or share the learning to other people. I should say that that’s one of my passion project and the lasting legacy, I should say, in the long run. Many people would learn and service other countries and they should say that this is coming from the academy.
But don’t worry, the day you have a team, you go back to Patrick and say, now you have more than one full-time person. You have three or four full-time person and you will use your whole team. I think this is where you’re going to- He cannot outsource.
Yes. Outsource the whole team to you and you manage it for him. Yeah.
Yes. Yeah.
I think for ARC itself, you guys do like crypto accounting for DAOs and for projects itself, right? Yeah.
I think this fractional CFO kind of work is very popular nowadays in the crypto world itself, where they don’t want to pay for a full-time person and they pay you guys to help out. Yeah. I think that’s becoming the norms already.
Even in the conventional accounting, they’re already hiring fractional CFO, fractional controller. I think that’s one of the strategy that really develops the startups, SMEs to shine, even if they’re still small. Yeah.
Thank you. Yeah. yeah.
Thank you, Penuil, for your answers. And that was something I was very curious about. Yeah.
any last words from you before we end the podcast today? Yeah. I think- I should say to the followers of Web3 Accountant, I think this is a good group that you need to follow different podcasts on a weekly basis. They will give you learnings in different jurisdictions.
I appreciate your newsletter as well. I’m reading that one regularly. I think for a new player in the crypto accounting space, find, I should say, or someone who you look up to and follow their footstep.
And sooner or later, your feet in the LinkedIn, it will be all coming from the people you follow. that’s really one of the idea to learn more. Just keep on learning.
And I should say lastly, the crypto accounting academy course is still open. I’m still inviting people or everyone who is interested to enter into this kind of niche. We’re still open.
Just find me in LinkedIn or on Facebook, you can find the link there. Penuil, you know, I’m doing this show with you today, you will not be out soon. But what I can do is, you know, can I give you a shout out on Friday itself? You send me a short text and then I will do a post specially for the school itself on Friday.
Yes. Yes. I appreciate that.
I appreciate that. Many thanks. Thank you.
Okay. Bye-bye. Thank you.
Thank you. Bye-bye.